When is the next update and will it finally fix the routing problem?

  • Question
  • Updated 2 years ago
  • Answered
And please please please don't just say "we are working on it"!

Some king of date would be useful.

Mike

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  • frustrated

Posted 3 years ago

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David, Official Rep

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Hi Mike, am I right in assuming you mean an update to CoPilot Live Premium for Android (an iOS update was approved by Apple and went live yesterday).

Overall, we can't provide specific dates for updates unfortunately. We do expect to release the next Android update soon, certainly in August. Among other things, this should bring the ability to import POIs.
If you have specific examples of routing issues we'd like to know as much detail as possible (start/end points, mode of travel etc).

Mike

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David

August is running out. Any news? I don't really care about importing POI's, but any improvements in routing would be more than welcome.

Mike

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Hello........ Is anybody out there!
Any chance of a reply David?

Jon McGugan

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I got a UK update last night but haven't had chanve to do anything with it.

Mike

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Thanks Jon, I have just looked and there is indeed an update. Strange that David couldn't even be bothered to say that.

I will try it out over the weekend and we will see what we will see.....

Jon McGugan

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Should I hold my breath, I think not. I also got email saying it was on offer in a summer sale.

Jon McGugan

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As I have had said before there is a disconnect. Given that Christian keeps telling people he will find out and get back but usually never does it does not surprise me they didn't post anything here.

Mike

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No, don't hold your breath. I have just tried my standard route (the one below) and nothing has changed.

Sigh........................

Mike

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I am off to Wales at the weekend. I will use both my Tom Tom and CoPilot at the same time (following the Tom Tom's route obviously) and put up a new post on Tuesday.

Should be good for a laugh if nothing else.

Mike

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I have just looked at the CoPilot blog (http://blog.copilotlive.com/uk/) and found this

"Alternatively, you may want to road test our latest app. With its unique new routing features and redesigned, interactive user interface, CoPilot Live Premium puts everything you need for accurate navigation abroad right at your fingertips."

"unique new routing features" !!!!!!!!!

They have got to be joking right?

jbg.havinga

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Well, they must be joking indeed ...

What I'm also missing is type of route, with v8 you could select short, economic, etc... in v9 it's cut out ... or very well hidden ...

Mike

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Hi David

Please bear in mind that what I am supposed to be doing is programming a windows interface for a scientific instrument so this is in less detail than i would like of if I had more time.

I have been running quite a few experiments on different routes against TomTom, Google maps and my local knowledge. My phone is a Samsung galaxy S2.

Here is a screen shot showing a common problem



The route is from Chipping Norton in Oxfordshire to Piddington in Buckinghamshire. The destination doesn't really matter though, I just picked it to force the exit from Chipping Norton.

Note the road the red arrow points too. This is the road that it should be routing me down, non of the alternative routes take it either.

For some reason CoPilot frequently ignores obvious roads that both TomTom and Google maps pick up.

Below is a screen shot of Google's route:



The other frequent routing problem is that CoPilot does not always pick the best route first, frequently one of the alternative routes is both quicker and shorter. Now I can kind of understand this in so far as you have to accommodate older and slower smart-phones so there is going to be a trade off between the accuracy of route calculation and the time it takes to calculate the route. On older phones it my cause too much of a delay to calculate four or five routes and then sort them, I know as a programmer that route calculation is processor intensive. A compromise might be to put in a setting where people can select speed of calculation vs accuracy so on fast phones several alternatives could be calculated and then sorted before the route options are presented.

On to re-routing errors.
I ran an experiment on my old TomTom Go750 by setting a route to the south of France and avoiding toll roads. This was simply to give it something to think about so i had plenty of time to watch it calculate the route. I then drove a couple of miles and deliberately turned off. What i found (and I kind of figured this would happen) is that for about half a mile the TomTom very quickly tries to get you back to the original route, after about half a mile it completely re-routes you. In the case of CoPilot it appears to try to take you back to the original route for far far longer, often to the point where it is making no sense at all. Worse still since I don't, at the moment, trust the routes CoPilot does choose when it finally does completely re-route me I suffer some degree of stress wondering where it is going to take me! Calculating several routes first and then sorting them would at least in part, solve this problem.

Mike

Mike

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David

I have just noticed an error in your map! The road the red arrow points to is the A44, your map labels the A361 as the A44 and doesn't label the A44 as anything. I am not just taking this from Google maps, it is also on the signs in Chipping Norton.

Perhaps it is the maps accuracy that is one of the problems? Have you changed your map supplier since V8?

Mike

David, Official Rep

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Thank you Mike for your in-depth feedback. It's greatly appreciated and has been escalated internally. We use NAVTEQ maps, which we believe are the highest quality available for sat nav systems in UK. Many thanks.

Riju

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Hi Mike, this is a problem with the raw data from Navteq. The labelling for A44 should be on London Road and not on Banbury Road. I have escalated the problem to them for a resolution.

Jon McGugan

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Strangely that may force an update to the maps (on the highly optomistic idea that a fix will be actually implemented rather than promised)

David

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David: how on earth can you say "which we believe are the highest quality available for sat nav systems in UK" when the UK and USA maps in CPLv9 are over 12months old ????

This is an absolute joke. Please talk you your suppliers and stop making ridiculous claims that simply are not true.

You really should be ashamed.

David

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Also, replicating your response 3 times is not good - be it naff software or poor operator competence.

Mike

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The software is by Get Satisfaction not Alk and the rest of the comment is not helpful. We are all frustrated by this whole affair, let's try to keep it civil. Under the circumstances that's difficult I know, I feel pretty angry too, but...........

David

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Thank you Mike,
I feel my comments are most civil, and brought on by a degree of frustration but certainly not anger. Note the absence of capitals (which can be indicative of shouting/raving in internet forums) and foul language.

If users don't express their frustration ALK will not get a flavour of customer views/feeling. Also, the questions you are asking have already been raised....and, virtually ignored. Regards, David (a fellow paying customer).

Mike

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Point taken. I keep asking though and guess what - no answer! David (Official Rep) asked for more detail and I went out of my way to provide it in the vain, and obviously stupid, hope of getting the same kind of effort put into a reply.

So now it's my turn:

David (Official Rep), are you going to reply to my post or are you simply going to ignore it? So far I have to say you are being a very naff Official Rep. Even a reply saying "I am working on a more detailed response, I will get back to you" would at least let me know that my efforts (requested by you!) have not been a complete waste of my time. I am not holding my breath, but I live in vain (and stupid) hope.......

David, Official Rep

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Hi Mike, as I mentioned in my response above, we do appreciate your feedback and we are reviewing in detail. It certainly is not a waste of time. The specific road name item in Chipping Norton you've identified is an interesting one - it seems that NAVTEQ have it named as London Road, while TeleAtlas have it named as A44 (as visible at the NAVTEQ.com map viewer). Overall we are taking your routing feedback - and others - specifically into account as we review ways to enhance routing. We obviously need to ensure that if we adjust default routing parameters then it does not impact others though.

As mentioned elsewhere, we are determined to provide the very best navigation experience possible, and are working tirelessly to do so. We hugely appreciate everyone's input to help us deliver that.

Mike

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Errr - yes. As far as the NAVTEQ map viewer goes I went on there yesterday and pointed out the mistake to them. When I went on it said "London Road" which it is. It is also the A44. I have just checked, yep it still says "London road" and labels the road to the NE as the A44. Which it isn't, its the A3400. Still in an effort to get a definitive answer to this I looked it up on the OS map just now. Well well well - the OS has all three sides of the triangle labelled as the A44. Not much sense there then, not that it's the first mistake I have spotted on OS maps. I wonder if anybody actually knows! See here : http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?x=...

Moving on from what is an intellectuality interesting, but minor, point - what about my main question. What can we expect in the next update?

and:

What about the missing speed limits on secondary routes?

Mike

Mike

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Hi David (Official Rep)

Last night I repeated my first experiment, which led to these comments: Note that the original experiment was before the last update.

The route is from Wendover, Buckinghamshire to Chipping Norton, Oxfordshire via the Oxford ring road.

http://getsatisfaction.com/copilotliv...

So going back to them after the last update, there is some good news:

When will CoPilot premium be able to choose a sensible route between two points? Not even any of the alternative routes make any sense.
One of the alternative routes now makes sense
Why does CoPilot premium try to route me via footpaths when I am in a car?
It’s stopped doing this
Why does CoPilot premium try to route me through the centre of a town when there is a bypass that is both quicker and shorter?
It’s stopped doing this, there were three instances of this – all are now fixed
Why does CoPilot premium tell me (repeatedly) to keep left when the only thing it can be referring to is a large lay-by next to the dual carriageway that is full of parked lorries? At 70 mph this could end in a fatal accident.
It’s stopped doing this
Why does CoPilot premium try to route me down dead ends?
It’s stopped doing this
Why does CoPilot premium warn me about safety cameras that don't exist?
All the safety cameras on this route were now reported correctly

Re-routing appears to have improved too.

So the last update is going in the right direction. It hasn’t arrived but at least it’s the right direction.

There was one thing I did differently.

First a few thoughts about routing:
Calculating the shortest route between two points is easy, calculating the quickest is far more complex. To calculate the quickest we need to know the road speeds and bearing in mind the old computer adage “garbage in, garbage out", to get an accurate time estimation we need accurate road speeds. CoPilot asks you to input what you feel is your average road speed for various road types. There may be some validity in this when it comes to motorways, but for primary, secondary and unclassified roads it probably does more harm than good:


  • Most people couldn’t accurately estimate this if they tried

  • It varies so much from route to route that any average is likely to be very inaccurate anyway



There is a better source of data though – speed limits. Speed limits, in the UK at least, tend to reflect road conditions and most people drive close to the speed limit. So to get an average speed all we need to do is look at each speed zone on the route, work out the time taken for that section and then add them all up. If we want to make it even more accurate we could factor in an adjustment for each junction, roundabout etc. I know the actual algorithm would have to be more complex than this, but you get where i am going.

The question is, does CoPilot use any of this data when it calculates journey times? Indeed does it actually have this data?

This brings me back to the one thing I did differently, I turned on ‘display speed limits’. What I found was not good. For one third of my journey CoPilot didn’t appear to know what the speed limits were, this section was entirely on secondary roads. When I got to the primary routes it didn’t get much better, it displayed the speed limits but they were nearly always wrong. One bit of this was expected (Thame to Wheatley) because the speed limit only changed about 6 months ago. The section from Oxford to Woodstock is more worrying – the 50mph speed limit has been in place for at least 10 years and CoPilot was reporting it as 60mph.

So the conclusion appears to be that CoPilot is using inaccurate data (both road and speed) to calculate journey times. Hardly surprising then that it comes up with inaccurate results.

I don’t know if NAVTEQ can supply the speed limits on secondary routes and Alk simply didn’t purchase this data or if NAVTEQ can’t supply it at all. My guess is that they can supply it, but Alk chose not to purchase it. If that is the case I can see some logic behind that decision, Alk is an American company and having driven in the US quite a bit my experience is that driving from almost anywhere to almost anywhere else you are nearly always using primary routes. Bearing in mind calculation speed, map file size, and the cost of the final product it therefore makes sense not to add speed limit information for secondary routes. Driving in Europe is very different though, for just about every journey I take a very significant part is on secondary routes.

David, I have (at your request) tried to supply some detail about the problems I am experiencing. If you could make the same effort to formulate a detailed reply, including things like what exactly is expected in the next update it would be much appreciated. And not just by me I think.

As a last note I believe NAVTEQ supply the maps for Garmin. Most people I have spoken to in the UK think that TomTom has more accurate maps.

Mike

Mike

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David (Official Rep)

Another question:

As far as my searches can tell NAVTEQ updates it's maps far more regularly than once a year. Why are the supplied maps so old?

Mike

michiel

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@David (official rep) >>>

see also my example at the bottom of thread:
http://getsatisfaction.com/copilotliv...

But really, I don't think this is a map issue but a copilot issue. Just play a bit with any routes and you will easily see that, regularly, copilot chooses 3 routes which are all 3 not the shortest or fastest. By adding a clever waypoint you can often find a better (shorter and faster) route.

And the point of Mike about the re-routing is of course also a very serious issue.

The type of maps that copilot uses would not be my first concern....

Jon McGugan

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I am very amused by the "redesigned, interactive user interface" in the new summer offer advert. they are persevering with a design no use to people trying to drive, it may look good in powerpoint presentations though.

Mike

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Also in the summer offer advert (http://blog.copilotlive.com/uk/):

"Why not find out what’s new in CoPilot Live Premium before you jet off?"

Go on - click the link.....

Oops, page not found.

Is that because there is nothing new in this update?

And:

"CoPilot Live Premium puts everything you need for accurate navigation abroad right at your fingertips."

Well everything except for a reliable routing algorithm. I have always thought that a a reliable routing algorithm was pretty fundamental in navigation software, but what the hell do I know?

Jon McGugan

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No better in walk mode, Too many repeated voice turns, Display unstable. I suspect ALK have lost everyone who knew anything about GPS.

Mike

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My suspicion is that they are trying out some kind of new routing algorithm and it's not working quite as they expected it to.

There is nothing new about the mathematics of the fundamentals, so just in case you are interested :-).

A shortest route one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dijkstra... (old and too slow to be of much practical use)

and some variations:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suurball...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnson%...

And an overview (PDF, it starts in Dutch, but the main body is in English)

http://alexandria.tue.nl/extra2/20041...

Mike

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Here we go again!

I have just tried to navigate to a place in Buckinghamshire from Milcombe in Oxfordshire.

This is the start of the route:



Why is it tying to send me that way?????

1) it is longer
2) I doesn't have an advantage of obviously being a faster road.
3) In fact it is very narrow, winding and takes me right through the centre of a tiny village called Wiggington.

I have marked the fastest route in red and the most obvious in blue.

So, David I repeat my question at the top of this post:

"When is the next update and will it finally fix the routing problem?

I don't think the last update made any changes to the routing algorithm. Am I wrong?

Just for the record it says "determining current position" only because I bought it into the office to get a screen grab and post it here. Sitting in my car it knew exactly where I was. Well 100 yrds out but.....

No ALK, you don't need the start and end points, the problem is obvious so please don't ask.

Kevinx

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Yeah, but Wiggington is nice Mike!!

I think they ought to just dump CPv9 and revert back to
CPv8 and develop on the hard core structure of that.

Let's face it, v9 "Premium" is somewhat a fiasco :-(

Pity....

Mike

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Well Kevinx you are right. The beer in the pub is pretty awful, but the village is very pretty.

I agree with your other comments too.

Mike

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Ah it looks like Christian has merged my new topic "Thanks for the Android update today. I hate to repeat myself but........ When is the next update and will it finally fix the routing problem?" with this one.

In doing so I think this has been lost:

Zooming in we find an interesting collection of no left turn and no right turn arrows.

Does this have something to do with the problem?



Mind you if we look at that junction in Google Earth we can see that no such restrictions exist and which one is the main route is incorrect too.

Christian, Official Rep

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Sorry for missing part of your post in the merge. Thanks for sharing your detailed routing issues. Our project mangers are looking into these. Thanks again for taking the time to detail and suppy the screenshots. Will keep you posted on this.

Mike

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Yes, but how often?

It's all well and good fixing the POI problem but the core functionality is routing and that part of CoPilot is still too unreliable to be useful.

David

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Have to agree with Mikes final comment.

ALK - CPLv9 is still not reliable enough for users to have confidence in its core function (navigation).

The 2 updates released so far have not addressed the main bugs within v9 and will have appeased only a handful of users concerned with importing custom POIs.

Providing up-to-date maps and POI files must be a key step to improve the routing/guidance. Or perhaps it is rocket science afterall :-)

David

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Here's another example of strange routing - the 2 altnernate routes (blue and purple) are both quicker and shorter than the default suggested route.

David

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The route is from Three Legged Cross to Kimmeridge Hill (bay) in Dorset should anyone need to replicate the problem.

henryg

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Well ALK, when are the next updates (Android & iOS)?

terrypingm

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@henryg: Following your reply in
http://forum.copilotlive.com/copilotl...
I found this thread, thanks.

Looks like no answers or fixes have been received from ALK then?

--
Terry, East Grinstead, UK

henryg

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Well ALK always seem to say for updates that routing has been improved, but I can't say I have seen it. More lots of false dawns - you think it may be better, then comes the letdown.

Always, always, look at alternate routes, and treat predicted alternate journey times with extreme skepticism IME. Also think first whether sorter of quicker may be best. And finally you have the ability to drag routes; it is a bit of a PITA on an iPhone, but should be better on an iPad.

You always have the option, whatever ALK may say, of complaining to Apple and asking for a refund. Be grateful it was not bought for Android!

michiel

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yes, i like the program, but not its routing.
You simply can't trust it.
what i now do:
1. look if the route makes sense
2. check in google maps what route they propose
3. in many cases, i really need to change the route and i have to add a waypoint. if you are lucky, the shorter and faster route is actually one of the 2 copilot alternative routes. (which also shows how stupid the copilot routing is)

Mike

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Yep, that's basically what I do. I also check the route here though:

http://www.routes.tomtom.com/#/map/?c...

Much easier if they simply fixed the problem though........................

terrypingm

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Mike: Thanks for the link, new one for me. Just tried half a dozen tests and that DOES look like intelligent routing. But (unless it's a setting I've missed) one rather frustrating flaw is that the green highlighting of the route covers the road names/numbers, yes?

--
Terry, East Grinstead, UK

Mike

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It's now 10 months since I started this post - come on ALK!

Can we have an update please!

I notice in this post: http://forum.copilotlive.com/copilotl...

That 23 hours ago you said this: "Hi all. I'm marking this 'idea/feature request' as implemented as we added "Quickest" and "Shortest" route options to Premium apps. "

Well Christian, where is it then? It's not on my premium app and there are no updates on either the Google store or via CoPilot itself.

Christian, Official Rep

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Hi Mike. It's in 'Vehicle Preferences', you can choose your vehicle type there, and for car there is option for quickest/shortest routing, as well as options for avoiding toll roads, congestion change zones, ferries and setting custom road speeds.

This thread is 10 months old and we have improved the routing in the Premium in a number of app updates since then. If you've had any routing issues with the most recent app update please post full details here so we can investigate.

terrypin

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Re the routing, have I understood this correctly please?

Are you saying that the grossly inaccurate routing I described in my post
http://forum.copilotlive.com/copilotl...
titled 'Seriously faulty routing', and which is similar to scores of other similar posts I've sice read, do not arise in the 'Premium' product? Implying that they are confined to the two products I've just bought, CoPilot GPS (for my iPad) and CoPilot Live 8 (for my Smartphone)?

--
Terry, East Grinstead, UK

Christian, Official Rep

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CoPilot GPS and CoPilot Live Premium are both based on the latest CoPilot platform (essentially v9) - so the routing is the same between them.

I've asked a colleague in the product management team to look though your detailed post about the routing. Thanks for posting.

michiel

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I don't think much has changed in the routing since earlier versions. Maybe marginal.
It's nice to have an option "fastest route". But if the co-pilot software doesn't know how to calculate the fastest route, it does not help much.
And I still had cases where the alternative route was faster than the first route.